14 posts / 0 new
Last post
lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
Dwemer ruins - each city has own specialization

I think this is best stage to create this topic. What I know we didn't start interiors here because of lack of assets (exteriors are main task now) The main problem with dwemer ruins is the same problem like with kwama mines. Almost of them looks the same! There is no point to go inside. You were in one, you were in almost anyone. When you are inside you don't feel that it was used for anything. Just random items and rooms in most cases. Erik and Adrian noticed that. I just imagine the whole dwemers cities here, exist to build their version of Utopia, to became gods. This is why they lead all experiments, researches on all areas to reach their goal as race. Again I will use parallel to history where USSR wanted to reach Utopia goal called as communism and they introduce some central planning. So Here we can have cities which have some unique destiny in whole program to achieve divinity. This is list of dwemer ruins. Each specialization part (city) works as cog in collective machine (race).We can use some writers to create story about them just to gave indicates for level designers, to create more diverse interiors. So to keep everything more consist we can write some list in excell, like in example of kwama mines to keep everything clear. One column for lore, one for how it is destroyed inside, how big (additional interiors), additional utilities, has living quarters or not, link to uesp library.

They are very brief ideas. Maybe writers will find out sth better.

So main idea, is creating all energy sucking things near lava sources, rest somewhere else. If you have some other ideas, feel free to write them down. This is topic which need some work and discussion between writers, loremasters to show their creativity.  It is also nice reference to decide what will be additional assets are needed or not. Just nice place to sort out things.

Write what do you think of it.

 

Edited by: grumpycat on 12/20/2015 - 23:04
Rebelzize
Rebelzize's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 4 days ago
Joined: 07/31/2013 - 07:39
Karma: 453
Donor
I love it! I always disliked

I love it! I always disliked how Dwemer ruins where so similar because it didnt make me want to explore them.
It would be cool to have every Dwemer ruin have its own theme, and maybe find remains of whatever it was they where working/researching on.

Dragomir
Dragomir's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 8 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/23/2013 - 16:22
Karma: 2009
In my ideal dream RPG there

In my ideal dream RPG there aren't many dungeons, but the ones that are in are unique, multi-level and complex. Even better if not every area is accessible right away, but in order to go deeper you have to unlock new things, find new items and learn new skills. I loved the hell out of Arknghtand. It was vast, complex, had areas that were only accessible with levitation, or after solving the puzzle box, also had enemy changes (bandits to centurions) on the way. I remember some dungeons in Skyrim being like that, especially the one with Blackreach. Blackreach was awesome. I think they attempted something like that with puzzles and dragon claws, but failed miserably making it all way too easy, and usually handing you the needed stuff right under your nose.

I think it would make sense to find a few main settlements and focus on expanding them, rather than giving ALL a purpose. Variety is good, and having some dungeons small and some huge would make the huge ones seem even bigger. Hours long dungeon crawls, unearthing secrets deeper and deeper down... And actually having to work hard for it, sometimes hitting a spot which you will only be able to access later. Or find secret passages that could serve as a viable mean of transportation. Last time I had a similar experience was in Arx Fatalis, and I don't know a game that would do dungeon crawling any better.

lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
@Dragomir, Yeah, maybe it's

@Dragomir, Yeah, maybe it's good to make some of them great, normal and average. Just like caves, being surrounded by awesome thing everywhere is not good too. Maybe some of them could not have some trendy things inside, but it would be good to give them a feeling that it was used for sth. Anything. Like in Fallout 3. Not just some random loot and rooms. Some story behind, I mentioned about it some time ago. Where as archeologist you can investigate ancient dead civilization. And fit city well in surrounded area.

I watched Arx Fatalis gameplay's and it would be great to add some "layer" of puzzles. First layer of player experience is just going inside and slashing enemies or looting. But player will lose a lot by not paying attention to details around. Then he will be awarded for being smart. He can approach faster quest objective or get access to sth cool. But it should be optional. Deus Ex is quite well designed in using environment to reach goals. DE: Human Revolution is pretty good too. If you brute-style you can use pure strength, if you want smart way, you will find one. Both sides are content.

-------------

Creating a several big dungeons among medium and smaller ones is quite good idea either. They can be even connected by idk mining tunnels or sth common to get similar experience like in Blackreach.

-------------

About puzzles, I think easiest way is just "inspirating" a lot of from other games. Copy them from Legend of grimrock, Baldurs Gate (they had some what I remember), Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex or anything else. I know this is quite obvious. Write them down (we have a lot of nerds here to use :)), choose the best, change them if we should and implement by plan. The same to decide which, will be big interesting dungeon or small average one. Writers will fill them with content, like I felt in Skyrim (more than MW). It would be much easier implement stuff according some schedule. I just want to avoid chaos, where ideas will be constantly changing without some grand design. There is a bit time before dwemers ruins to be implementing, so it's good to establish some basics for them in near future.

-------------

Btw. for fleshing out ideas I created map to doodling on it. (I used from uesp as base)

I erased all cities and farms. Just to give clear point of view how dwemers functioned.

Above is just example with some notes.In this case I just sorted them by type, I draw some "routes". It just much easier to use some visualizations. Of course this is draft.

Mo...
Mo...'s picture
Member
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 08/11/2014 - 23:08
Karma: 255
If so this reminds me Fallout

If so this reminds me Fallout... They've made amazing history for every bunker

Different interiors... I think this will be some kind boring when you will play this game again. This appears because it's easier to keep in memory every city when they're different. Undiscovered world is more interesting. But history of cities is fine.

Maybe small changes of city design? We could make monuments that will show what this city is for. Maybe a logo of clan that owns this city

lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
Different interiors... I

Different interiors... I think this will be some kind boring when you will play this game again.

I know what you mean, but I have only one word which will explain this "Oblivion". Of course in some degree many chambers could be generic to have sth common with the rest. But it would be good to have sth standing out.

Maybe small changes of city design? We could make monuments that will show what this city is for.

Meh.. sounds like a lot of work. Best thing is to use what we have than adding sth new. Maybe only some statues of workers but you have to find someone to do that.

Maybe a logo of clan that owns this city

This is better. But it should be a bit hidden and devastated (weathering). Old communists logo/city emblems are quite good as refs. They are quite spartan.

Mo...
Mo...'s picture
Member
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 08/11/2014 - 23:08
Karma: 255
Old communists logo/city

Old communists logo/city emblems are quite good as refs

As real builder of Communism I will help you)) As always)

Do you remember last work "Progress"? I think for better Communism you need grotesk style (in case that can draw not realistic cities and more arian dwemers and this will be veeeery fine). Look at the background it's Communism sence of progress.

How about dwemer dream? To conquer all Vvanderfell and bring down daedric gods (very very communism like).

lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
I was thinking more about

I was thinking more about emblems like that (example) Quite not complicated symbols connected with industry and science. Your are a bit too complex. It would be good if they would be "tough" and "heavy". I don't know why but I dind't find too much other examples in this style.

How about dwemer dream? To conquer all Vvanderfell and bring down daedric gods (very very communism like).

What I suppose they didn't care too much of "this" world and they wanted to became gods. They were superior already then, so why they should bother themselves with other lower races.

Mo...
Mo...'s picture
Member
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 3 months ago
Joined: 08/11/2014 - 23:08
Karma: 255
You did not find examples

You did not find examples like that because it's not very soviet style. Soviet painters always represented superior mechanisms (for the time that they lived) in all it's grace. And there were no logos in USSR at all because everything was a property of government (there was no need for them).

I see this logo as embossed in stone on the entrance to the city and as a mural on the ceiling. Maybe more lines are better for the ceiling

OrdoCorvus
OrdoCorvus's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: 01/20/2014 - 00:29
Karma: 40
lukkar wrote:What I suppose

lukkar wrote:

What I suppose they didn't care too much of "this" world and they wanted to became gods. They were superior already then, so why they should bother themselves with other lower races.

Fixed it for you.

Numidium was the grand project, it's conceivable that toward the end, every spare resources was being poured into it. A significant number of facilities would be required to manufacture and assemble the various pieces, as well as to keep Numidium's well-documented reality-bending properties in check.

It's also worth noting that these structures are ancient as can be, and Vvardenfel is a very geologically unstable area, some of the smaller dungeons could be justified with floods, cave-ins, lava-leaks, etc. It's possible, even probable, that some of the land has shifted in the years since the Dwemer disappeared. Level designers could use this to create new hazards and traps in the dungeons.

lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
Well, I think this thread

Well, I think this thread could be released to the public. We have a lot of volunteers for writing tasks, so it would be good to give some guides which could be used by level designers. Just expanding initial ideas. All ideas here, could be done with already planned assets (maybe with labs could be some problems). If not they could be just skipped. Usually work go faster when is some plan, than is not any. There could be even done some maps for levels.

grumpycat
grumpycat's picture
Moderator
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: 12/08/2012 - 06:41
Karma: 3383
I hadn't seen this thread

I hadn't seen this thread before. I've moved it to public and hoping for as many suggestions as possible. I like some of the stuff mentioned already. Although trying to make "epic" dungeons is probably beyond the scope of what we can accomplish with current work loads.

However I do like the idea of giving level designers a bit of a framework for each dungeon as far as its background.

I think landscapers can take ideas from this as well. Squally, Aleft can have a ruined port look exterior? Make it happen my good man.

alysander
alysander's picture
Member
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 9 months ago
Joined: 09/27/2013 - 06:34
Karma: 1519
Towns are pretty isolated.

Towns are pretty isolated. They need some common buildings/rooms, hwvr some of them could be unreachable for player.

Would be great to have more elements/models that could be recognized by player as item, that doing some real function.
Then designer could be able to make pretty simple rooms/buildings :

+ some room can have only big set of heat exchangers, placed in magma and turbines - and this could be recognized as "power plant" (oe just great engline) to some point. I am still think we must limit energy transmission to mechanic shafts, going through each coridor. That restricts from ENERGY specialization of city, but there can be small buildings outside of towns, transporting power via exterior shafts (best place is under long bridges for example).
+ Underground farms.
+ Water pumps and boilers.
+ Robot (animunkuli) maintenance stations.

+ Living rooms/space.

City specialization could be:
+ Mining (not 100% of minerals, could be used by player/aborigens).
+ Farming and packing (dwemer cannery would be great).
+ Production of soul gems.
+ Animunkuli/weaponry military-industrial complex.
+ Production of small things to middle-aged dwemer to throw on his/hers table or in pocket: mechanical calculators, optical storage devices, drawing tools, gas lamps and so on. We really need many such stuff.
+ Metal/glass/other_materials production.

I wonder how dwemers' cities were connected by trade. Some hints to deep level underground trains would be good.
 

lukkar
lukkar's picture
Contributor
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: 01/24/2014 - 07:22
Karma: 1565
I wonder how dwemers' cities

I wonder how dwemers' cities were connected by trade. Some hints to deep level underground trains would be good.

I remember that Rav left some dwemer road texture, so some particular remains could be left on the surface.

Second thing is that, there is a lot of buried corridors, the whole island is very active geologically, so most connections could be buried.

I think it would be left one or two survived connections between druscashti and bthungthumz or between Nchatdumz and Nchurdamz. They are close enough together. Maybe even connect all dangeons in Molag Amur area in some not ordinary way. That you don't reach nearest one all the time.  The connecting path would be probably just tunnel with destroyed rails.

@Alys

Production of soul gems and glass sounds sth which could be also included. Also normal rooms connected with some living activity will not harm anything. These dungeons are not so specialized in such high degree. They just have some flavor to distinguish them enough from each other.

If you create some ideas try to match particular one with existing dungeon. In that way it will make more sense. Producing just ideas is not enough.

---------------------

If some assets would be created later, I don't thing it will take too much time to clutter some interiors again. Add some strange dwemer thing for which one we don't have time now to create.