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thermador
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[MERGED] Restored Faction Relationships

Executive Summary:

1) The current faction relationships are very different from the original Morrowind Experience.  For example, if you join the thieves guild, all members of the Camonna Tong will attack you on sight.  Morrowind wasn't like this, but David doesn't want to change the main mod to put the original faction relationships in, so here is my mod.  This is all based on tbfam's original factions patch which called my attention to this issue.

2) This patch sets up faction relationships to the same behavior as the original game.  The 'best' Faction Disposition Adjustment (FDA) scores were determined using a mathematical model to determine best fit (sum of least squares, a.k.a. linear optimization a.k.a. linear regression). The result is very close to the way Morrowind works - all relationships are based on this table, and the NPCs responses should be very similar.

3) Files attached at the bottom of this post.

 

 


Details:

1) Morrowind's determination of whether or not a NPC attacks you on sight is based on their Fight AI characteristic, and is much more complex than Oblivion's system (see link)

  • Fight is an integer from 0 to +100
  • If Fight is greater than 70, the NPC will attack depending on distance to the player
  • If Fight is greater than 30, the NPC will attack depending on disposition to the player
  • If Fight is 30 or less, the NPC won't attack unless the player commits a crime
  • If Fight is 0, the NPC will only attack in self-defense

Will the Morrowind NPC attack?

  • Depends on the complex interaction between Fight, Distance, and Disposition
  • In general, if the Disposition is less than 1/2 of Fight, the NPC will attack on sight
  • Almost ALL in-town NPCs have a Fight of 30 (rarely a 40 or 50) meaning that they won't attack unless you commit a crime in front of them.  Therefore, Morroblivion should preserve this and different player-joinable factions should NOT attack each other on sight.  For the most part, they do, as NPCs have Aggression=5, the behavioral equivalent of Fight=30 in Morrowind.

 

2) Oblivion's determination of whether or not a NPC attacks you on sight is based on the NPC's Aggression AI characteristic and their Disposition with the player.

  • Aggression is an integer from 0 to +100
  • NPCs with an aggression of 5 or less will never attack, but will fight in self defense
  • NPCs with an aggression of 0 will never fight, even in self-defense

Will the Oblivion NPC attack?

  • If the NPC's disposition towards the player drops more than five points below the NPC's aggression, the NPC will attack.
  • Almost ALL in-town NPCs have an aggression of 5 so that they will only attack in self defense (including defense of their property) - (equivalent to Fight=30 in Morrowind).

 

3) Morrowind's faction system is based on the formula:

Faction Disposition Adjustment = (Reaction * 5) * (0.5 + (FactionRank * 0.5)

where Reaction = an integer from -3 to +3 per this table
where FactionRank = an integer from 0 to +10 per this table

So if you just joined the thieves guild and are the lowest rank (1), the Camonna Tong's Reaction is -3. 

Faction Disposition Adjustment = (-3 * 5) * (0.5 + (1 * 0.5))
Faction Disposition Adjustment = -15 * 1 = -15

If you are the guildmaster:

Faction Disposition Adjustment = (-3 * 5) * (0.5 + (10 * 0.5))
Faction Disposition Adjustment = -15 * 5.5 = -82.5

Of course, that is just the faction disposition adjustment - the total disposition is set by your personality score, your clothes, whether your weapon is drawn, and your reputation score. 

 

4) Oblivion's disposition calculation is much simpler than Morrowind's:

Faction Disposition Adjustment = (Reaction * FactionRank)

where Reaction = an integer from -100 to +100 (this is the number entered in the CS under the Character -> Faction menu)
where FactionRank = an integer from 0 to +10

So in the current version of Morroblivion (v049), if you just joined the thieves guild and are the lowest rank, the Camonna Tong's Reaction is -20. 

Faction Disposition Adjustment = -20 *  1 = -20

So the Morrowind would have modified disposition by -15, Morroblivion modifies it by -20.  OK so not a huge difference.  But what if you're the guildmaster?

Faction Disposition Adjustment = -20 *  10 = -200

A lot more than -82.5 that Morrowind would have calculated.  And that is just one example.  Here are the graphs for the House Redoran and the Theives Guild relationships.

 

5) Obviously, we can't just plug in the old -3 to +3 numbers from Morrowind since the calculation steps for the Faction Disposition Adjustment are so different.  Likewise, we can't just make them up off the cuff however we feel like (which is what we have been doing).

Instead, we have to mathematically adjust the faction relationships to scale up so that the same effect is preserved in both Morrowind and Morroblivion.  This is no easy task, as the formulas are very different.

In order to do this, I set this problem up in Microsoft Excel and used Solver to determine optimality.  Basically, Solver determines what Oblivion Reaction (an integer between -100 and +100) minimizes the differences between Morrowind's calculation system and Oblivion's calculation system for the Faction Disposition Adjustment (across ranks 0-10).

The results are as follows:

MW Reaction value Oblivion Reaction value that produces the most similar Faction Disposition Adjustment* Sum of Differences (FactionRanks 0-10) Sum of Absolute Values of Differences (FactionRanks 0-10)
-3 -9 (-8.57) -7.50 37.50
-2 -6 (-5.71) -5.00 25.00
-1 -3 (-2.86) -2.50 12.50
0 0 (0.00) 0.00 0.00
1 3 (2.86) 2.50 12.50
2 6 (5.71) 5.00 25.00
3 9 (8.57) 7.50 37.5

*must be an integer between -100 and +100, actual calculated value in parenthesis

So anywhere where Morrowind used -3, we should use -9, and anywhere they used -2, we should use -6 and so on.  Thanks to this handy table, making the changes to tbfam's mod was fairly easy.

Due to the imperfect nature of linear optimization, differences are:

  • At very low ranks in a faction, the other factions are slightly more friendly than Morrowind would have been
  • At mid-level ranks in a faction, the other factions are almost exactly as friendly as Morrowind would have been
  • At the highest ranks in a faction, the other factions are slightly less friendly than Morrowind would have been

You can see this in the graphs for the House Redoran and the Theives Guild relationships.

 


Graphs

Faction relationships in original Morrowind (-3 to +3 values)

 

Faction relationships in My Restored Faction Relationships Mod (rescaled for Oblivion's different calculation of FDA)

 

Faction relationships in default Morroblivion V49

 

 

Edited by: qwertyasdfgh on 07/25/2016 - 08:03
Dave B
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Thieves' Guild Not "Unplayable"
While I agree that some tweaking can be done to faction relations, I very much disagree that the Thieves' Guild Quest Line is "Unplayable." I played through it. I played through it all, including the Bal Molagmer Quests. I think that the Camonna Tong should attack Thieves' Guild members; that's what they do and that's the way they are, ruthless, brutal. There is even a miscellaneous quest that sends you into the Council Club to eliminate the "bad people." Morrowind relations should be more filled with hatred, not less so. I have already "toned down" the relations too much as it is. However, I do understand Camonna Tong attacking Thieves' Guild members isn't the way it was in Morrowind (even though it probably should have been), and will certainly welcome adjustments to the Camonna Tong/Thieves' Guild.
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OK, OK they aren't

OK, OK they aren't "unplayable" exactly.  I fixed the wording in my post.  But yeah, the Council Club in particular is what bothered me.  Having played through the original Morrowind many times, it seemed bizarre to be attacked on sight as a bottom-rung Thieves Guild member. 

In fact, in all my Morrowind playthoughs, it was a very rare occurence that I would be attacked on sight by an opposing faction - usually only if I was guildmaster level.  The main one I remember is when I visited some Telvanni locations as Arch-Mage.  But 99% of the time, rather than being instantly attacked, their responses to me were more and more negative, or they would refuse to talk to me at all. 

Realistically, an NPC isn't going to commit unprovoked murder just because your character is a member of an opposing faction!  That would be like a fan of Texas A&M pulling out a gun and murdering a fan of Texas Tech just because he saw him wearing a Texas Tech jersey!  At most, some jibes and insults would be thrown, at worst a fist-fight, but no one is going commit unprovoked murder, even with all the guns and whiskey they've got in Texas.

Besides, the patch I made doesn't "tone down" faction relations across the board.  Some are "toned down", some are "toned up", a lot have been added, and a couple have been removed.

All of this was done to make faction relations as close to the original game as possible.  Nothing was done on a whim or with the goal of making things easier for the player.

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Since faction relations are

Since faction relations are discussed here, I'm gonna ask some questions:

1.) There is a faction '0factMorrowind' which have a disposition modifier +100 to the members of the same faction and 'noLore' faction. Does that mean that all (or almost all) Morroblivion NPCs get maximum disposition to each other?

2.) Slaves have +100 to PlayerFaction. As long as they have Agression set to 0, is it safe to remove this modifier?

3.) Is it just me or people in Vvardenfell are actually more friendly to PC, than in Cyrodiil? I talked to random NPCs and none of them had disposition lower than 60, sometimes it was above 90. Seems a little strange to me. (I'm not the member of any factions on Vvardenfell yet).

thermador
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1) Yes, that is what that

1) Yes, that is what that means.  If an NPC is a member of two or more factions, the highest relationship with the other NPC takes precedence.  I haven't tried disabling this relationship, so it would need testing.

All Morrowind NPCs should still be in the 0factmorrowind faction however, as there are important parts of the mod that use this faction membership to distinguish between Morrowind and non-Morrowind NPCs (dialogue and greetings for example.)

According to David's post here, that faction relationship was added as a stopgap to keep NPCs from killing eachother.  The proper way to do this is probably to set all friendly NPCs to have Aggression=5 in their AI settings.

2) Probably, as long as their aggression is 5 or less.  I am not 100% on this; you would need to test it.

3) That is a byproduct of the current faction settings.  A lot of them are way too strong, either negatively OR postively.  The patch I posted should fix that.

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Thanks for the reply. I tried

Thanks for the reply. I tried removing mentioned relations + using your tweaks. Haven't noticed much difference yet, but at least there are no fights :)

 About the 3rd - its really strange, because my character is not a member of any Morrowind factions, so technically should not be affected. My best guess is that is racial bonus (I play as dark elf and there a lot of dark elves on Vvardenfell)

thermador
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Updated

Yes, that is the racial bonus effect.  I made a test character using my faction relationships mod, a default thief character that was a Khajiit.  In Balmora, being a level 1 character who had joined zero factions (not even the blades yet) I got disposition from NPCs of 30-40 from NPCs, unless it was another Khajiit, in which case I got a disposition of 60-70.  So Oblivion's engine gives you a big racial bonus, yeah.

Top tip, play Morroblivion as Dark Elf for way easier disposition/persuasion.

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A quick question: can you
A quick question: can you install/uninstall this mod at any time? I have gained quite a few levels (going through the different factions' quest lines) and have noticed the factions interactions. I didn't think I wanted this mod when I first installed and after a few thieves guild quests I figured I may as well- and for the sake of future interactions between factions.
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Yes, all you have to do is

Yes, all you have to do is deactivate the ESP file to turn off this mod.  It is only one file.  If it is active in your load order, it will fix the faction relationships.  If it's not, you will have David's off-the-cuff faction relationships that are in the Morrowind_ob.esm file. 

Here are a couple examples of how different David's off-the-cuff faction relationships are from my version, compared to the original Morrowind relationships:  Here are the graphs for the House Redoran and the Thieves Guild relationships.