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Ice
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Very cool Anruin! Great work!

Very cool Anruin! Great work!

ironman12345
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Anruin,Your statement that

Anruin,

Your statement that "Also I want to say that Andoran has the permission granted to make an app and translate our addon on the new engine." seems odd to me as morroblivion was sent underground for converting TES3 to TES4.

And your picture states that a tool named Chakakin [Anton Chukakin is a russian security pro] was used to convert TES4 to TESV,why are we underground if you can get permission to do the same as us.?

 

Clint
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Ironman, because they're

Ironman, because they're converting their own custom assets. Unfortunately, we've converted Bethesda assets, and that's why we're underground.

oratorus
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Yeah, and the main problem is

Yeah, and the main problem is that some Morrowind assets come from third party sources, which may open up Bethesda to get sued. If that wasn't the case I don't think they would have ever cared about this stuff.

Ice
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So is there any way we can

So is there any way we can identify and eliminate those assets that would violate the agreement? We could replace them with assets our own members have created?

If this is at all possible, we should make this a prioity. Becoming an 'unbanned' project would solve a ton of our issues. Imagine, tons more traffic, because people wouldn't be scared to visit, and support from Bethesda (or at least not fear of them). To me this sounds like something we should work very hard for, if it's at all possible. Does anyone know what we'd need to do?

Clint
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Exactly what I've wanted to
Exactly what I've wanted to know for a long time. Can someone point to a specific part in the EULA so we can know what exactly is illegal with our project? If we replace those "illegal" objects with custom ones, do we become legal? For some reason, I have a feeling that Bethesda will never forgive or support us because we've used and converted their assets. Oratorus I think has a valid point. I don't think Bethesda would care if it was all their own, but some of the "things" (what, I don't know?) in Morrowind were third party or made by third parties, so Bethesda is trying to cover its own hide from getting sued. I would love for this project to become legal, but the question is, where do we start? And Bethesda is the only one that can tell us. And I don't think we're on good terms with them.
RammS
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I'll read Skyrim's etc EULAs

I'll read Skyrim's etc EULAs to find the problem

ps anybody can give me a Skyrim EULa. I find CK EULA, but can't find Skyrim's. And make some notes:

The first problem was in second article - copyright. Bethesda has got rights for the whole Morrowind: quests, npcs etc. So unfoternately we can't use anything from TES III etc.

Second problem in 4. article of the EULA.

 

INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Bethesda Softworks, its partners, licensees, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Editor pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.

 

 

I think Bethesda doesn't give any permission to use anything from their games. And problem not in the legal side. This is a problem of a principe. They don't want to remake Mor or Obl. They are want to make money. They won't give up.

EnvyDeveloper
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But they have made money
But they have made money because people bought morrowind and oblivion just for this project. And I think Beth realises this. They're just trying to not get sued.
thermador
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I'm not a lawyer (although I

I'm not a lawyer (although I deal with legal issues regularly for work) but I think that the Morroblivion project clearly falls under fair use. The first test for fair use is whether it is transformative or merely derivative. I think we are clearly safe in that we are completely remaking the whole game from stem to stern, and not just a couple of minor tweaks to get it to run in Oblivion / Skyrim. The second test is related to works that clearly are public domain, and also works that are unpublished. Doesn't really apply in this case. The third test is relates to the amount of the work that is copied. Here is where we fall short - virtually all of Morrowind is used, not just a snippet. However, in light of the last two tests, I think we're ok. The fourth test is the effect on the original work's value - is Bethesda losing money because of us? This is where we are the strongest - because Morroblivion requires ownership of two Bethesda games, because we don't make ANY money with this site, and because we encourage people to buy more things from Bethesda. If anything, they are probably MAKING money because of us. The fifth test is relates to 'professional communities' and 'industry practices'. Here too, we are very strong, since 1) there are huge Modding communities for these games and 2) Bethesda actively encourages Modding their games and 3) Bethesda makes money the more mods there are (because it makes their games more desirable for purchase and builds a network efffect.) Further, Bethesda has to consider the substantial reputation damage they would suffer if they came down on us, since it would be seen as coming down on the Modding community as a whole. Further, it would create a Streisand Effect. So stop worrying. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

RammS
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@thermador I agree with you -

@thermador

I agree with you - here is nothing to worry about. Question about going in jail or pay money is not actual=)))

But  Bethesda doesn't want to give access for huge amount of people.

 

Ice
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So Thermador, what actually

So Thermador, what actually makes us banned? Is there anything we can do / change to become unbanned? It seems like we're safe reproducing quests and materials and possibly even 3d objects converted over (since you need both games). It sounds like the only issue is in texture files, because Bethesda didn't own full texture rights. Am I right here/ if so do we have enough replacements that we could effectivly wipe out / not distribute origional textures? If so would that be enough to 'unban' us?

Also is it at all possible {NOTE: No one do this without Project Lead permission} that someone could write an unofficial letter to Bethesda asking them what we could possibly do to get Morroblivion unbanned? Perhaps they would take that as a sign of good faith, and if we have the resources to meet their demands... an unbanned Morroblivion/Skyrim would have lots of room to prosper. It would mean more traffic and more volunteers. I think it's well worth at least a bit of investigation.

Anruin
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Guys, I think that you need

Guys, I think that you need to create some sort of draft proposal with right words and show it to Bethesda. I think Thermador is right. Bethesda wouldn't lose anything because of Morroblivion or Skyrimorroblivion :D people will buy their new product - Skyrim to play Morrowind or Oblivion on a new engine. Some of them can buy original Morrowind or Oblivion, inspired by yours Skyrimorroblivion. Do you have a leader who can speak on behalf of the team? We've contacted Bethesda, helped them with CK during beta test, got some contacts, granted permission for conversion and creation of utility app to make this conversion available. And you are just sitting here discussing. Try to act! Contact them, ask what you can do what you can't, make them believe that your project will bring them money on the golden plate etc. Just as any game company does before its publisher.

Ah, and Ironman, app is called Chuvakin.

3 words, 9 letters1 words, 1 letters
thermador
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Don't contact Bethesda, ever.
Don't contact Bethesda, ever. The email will get shuffled to their legal peoples, and will do nothing good. The project wont ever get 'unbanned' and it was only ever 'banned' from the official forums, and then tesnexus banned it because they didn't want to piss off Bethesda. Contrary to popular belief, the was no cease and desist letter, nor were there any legal threats. Bethesda just didn't want to get in hot water with the people that they bought textures and other game assets from. Because these contracts won't change, there is nothing we can do to make the project 'unbanned' but, as I stated above, there is also very little legal risk on our part. Bethesda knows about us. As long as we don't go bugging them, they're not going to do anything. But they also won't help us because they can't give the appearance of doing so, as it could be construed by the company that they licenced game assets from as a breach of their contract. Can we please just accept that and move on? Having the project on tesnexus or the official forums wouldn't really help that much anyway -- we'd get a lot more comments and complaints, but unlikely any more dedicated help.
oratorus
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Agreed.

Agreed.

RammS
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thermador wrote:Don't contact

thermador wrote:

Don't ....

 

Mb we should create group on facebook, twitter acc etc?

ironman12345
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First,sorry for the

First,sorry for the mis-spelling of Chuvakin.

There might be a way to go,without upsetting Beth,but it would mean lots of work for this community.

We have morrowind in oblivion,right,ok but it uses lots of TES3 stuff,so firstly we could make sure that most if not all recources are changed to TES4 oblivion ones [a big job],then if we want it all in skyrim,we would have to change it all to TESV with the tools out there and then use the CK.

That way it would just be a TESV mod,like the Andoran convertion.?

But I agree,Beth will never agree to morroblivion as it stands at this time.?

 

Clint
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Nah Ramms, we don't want to
Nah Ramms, we don't want to do that either. Why, I'm not sure. But if you look on the FAQ section, Thermador asks us not to.
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JB.
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Thanks for the links, and

Thanks for the links, and concerning your query I confirm I've made Children of the Night for Morrowind, but that was so long ago.

 

Ice
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Man, I'm really with Anruin

Man, I'm really with Anruin here. What he says worked for them and I think it could work for us. I think Bethesda wants to support their modding community, especially where they can make money, so if we came at them asking them what we could do to gain their support, I'd guess that they'd be willing to let us know what to do. Part of the problem is our lack of communication / good will on our part. Because if we could figure out what assets were 'wrong' we could by now easily replace them. Give us two months to replace bad assets with our own; we probably already have most of them. And I guruntee more people would be willing to work on this project if it were unbanned. I'm sure there are people right now that would be willing to help, but don't want to 'get in trouble'.

But, I understand that contacting Bethesda poses risks for the whole project, and I understand that it's not my place to decide. :(

Anruin
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Really? It is great! Your

JB: Really? It is great! :D Your mod inspired me to create my old good Battles of the Legionnaire. I've even tried to contact you at those far ago times. Children of the Night was a great mod I think!! I was waiting for the third part, but you've been lost then :D

Ice: What for legals and other stuff - I've described my own opinion. I think that no one will kill you if you will just ask why you can't make Morroblivion, if you will try to talk with them. They wouldn't lost anything 'cause of your mod. Some people will know about Morrowind or Oblivion, and will buy whem, someone would buy Skyrim to play your mod. Etc. It is makes sense what you would offer them and what skill of speechcraft do you have ;) But this is not my deal anyway.

1 words, 2 letters1 words, 4 letters
EnvyDeveloper
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Anruin, btw I'm still making
Anruin, btw I'm still making Morrowind mods. :) Beth knows about this site. They borrowed steph's idea from this forum in the game jam (I think). I think they're secretly supporting us and they appreciate this project, I'm sure, as it makes them really nice money. Some people can't stand morrowind's graphics or combat system but gave it another chance to play it in the new tech. Some people don't care less about Oblivion but bought it just to see Morrowind in the new tech.
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Bethesda isnt heartless..

Bethesda isnt heartless.. well doesnt seem like they are.. show them this discussion and im sure theyll understand

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The reason behind Bethesda

The reason behind Bethesda not supporting us has to do with the fact that they licenced some of the assets for morrowind from other designers, thus the reason Bethesda had to come after us in the first place is they were trying to protect themselves legally. Bethesda definately know of this site, but currently its in a sort of plausable deniablility, where they don't watch this so they have no legal obligation to do anything about it. And in truth there were C&D letters sent, I was back on GRWN when the owner of the site got one as well as the developer of the converter.

oratorus
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Didact1 wrote:Bethesda isnt

Didact1 wrote:

Bethesda isnt heartless.. well doesnt seem like they are.. show them this discussion and im sure theyll understand

I'm sure the developers aren't, but their legal team who come from their parent company Zenimax probably are. It would really be best to just continue very quietly the way we are now.

Anruin
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What kind of Morrowind mods

EnvyDeveloper: What kind of Morrowind mods are you making? I have a couple of interesting mods ;) One is the Seyda Neen extender, and one is modification with new storyline and new character - imperial legion officer.

1 words, 2 letters1 words, 4 letters
EnvyDeveloper
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Anruin, I plan to finish this
Anruin, I plan to finish this semi conversion called Desert Region 2, based on the Ashes of Apocalypse world, later this year. :) It's sci-fi with a fantasy centre. On the surface there are sci fi buildings but in the wasteland, you can see the ruins of some of the old world.
Anruin
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Wow it's interesting. What

Wow it's interesting. What other features do you have there except the world? E.g. I have some hard scripting, allowing NPCs to talk each other, do some cinema-scenes, walk beyond one cell, also I have quests with random ways etc.

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EnvyDeveloper
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Fast travel via spell or
Fast travel via spell or amulet, guns (from AOA mod), some quests which if the player participates in them bad things happen and there are two storylines...etc Though I don't know how to make meshes seem "ruined". One main city has been nuked but there are hardly any signs of damage and I want it to be damaged. What could I do to make meshes "ruined"?
Anruin
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Can't get what do you mean

Can't get what do you mean :D you can create apt textures to make your buildings look burned etc. If it was nuked I can give you an advice to create big crater in the middle and radially scattered debris, fallen trees etc. It would look great I think.

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Yeah, that would be great.
Yeah, that would be great. The city is built from the Mournhold meshes and there has to be signs of nuclear damage. Any advice on it would be great. :)
soucy666
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Thermador
Thermador's right. The most that making this project accepted would do would just get us on TESNexus, and let's be honest, most of the Bethesda modding community are leechers. They just download and never contribute. We'd be bombarded with comments, complaints, and suggestions. Plus people that would sign up and forget about their account. I mean, isn't it cool to be considered underground, yet ignored by Bethesda anyway?
ironman12345
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Cool! soucy,I like playing in

Cool! soucy,I like playing in sneak mode,[joking].:)

 

Ice
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lol at Ironman

lol at Ironman

:D

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Having Morrowind and Oblivion

Having Morrowind and Oblivion in Skyrim would be amazing...but the gap between Oblivion and Skyrim would make it kind of awkward. Still, getting the converter to do this would be great as long as the quests don't break again. Re-making the Morrowind quests a second time and re-making the Oblivion quests would be a pain.

Anruin
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Why you have to remake the

Why you have to remake the Oblivion quests? What about me, I don't like a half of them. I think you'd better create new ones or change old to be more real and interesting.

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dorantor
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I like most of the Oblivion

I like most of the Oblivion quests and I think it would be great if someone would remake them.

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Sorry to destroy your dreams,

Sorry to destroy your dreams, but until the -64/64 x-axis-havok-bug is fixed by beth or someone else it is simply impossible to convert morroblivion to skyrim.

If you want to know more about this bug or maybe even have a solution for it, here's a link

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1352988-fixing-the-64x64-cell-havok-bug-for-when-you-just-want-a-bigger-world/

I don't think that even morrowind could be converted for skyrim because of this bug; simply because even the size of morrowind is too big. And even Oblivion could be too big; but ´here i'm not sure.

But maybe someone here have an idea how to fix it, so we can only hope.

Ice
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That -64/64 bug is REALLY

That -64/64 bug is REALLY scaring me.
Thanks for sharing, let us know if anyone comes up with a solution! 

EnvyDeveloper
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I thought Skyrim had a bigger
I thought Skyrim had a bigger landmass than Morrowind? Someone compared the land masses, so it might be possible. If Andoran is too big as well, it may also be a problem to convert it over too.
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Anruin wrote:Hello people.I

Anruin wrote:

Hello people.

I am programmer that is currently works on the Andoran converter. It was real surprise to me to see such topic here. For now I have not so much time and I had brief look through it. For now I will just say that language really is not the problem. Now the main thing that brought me here. I have really not much time at the moment and I'm searching for a programmer who would be able to help me with my converter application. If there is anyone who knows C++ and wants to help me it would be really great. Thanks.

Best regards,

Anry Narleyn, the Andoran team.

Hello. I am a professional programmer ( at work working with PHP ) and an experienced reverser. I know all needed languages ( including Assembler x86, C++ etc ) and been using Olly Debugger for years. Reversed enormous amount of applications, I also have experience with adding functions to compiled programs :)

All i really need is a solid ESP/ESM knowledge. If you'd like to lend me a hand - you surely won't regret.

Mail: OrminAPO@gmail.com

Thanks! 

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Step back, kneel and bow down

Step back, kneel and bow down to the almighty shadeMe; the dancing robot found the bug that caused the havok to go crazy and became the one and only dovakhiin:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1352988-fixing-the-64x64-ce...

I hope this fix does not have any side effects, is fixable by beth and will be implemented in the future. It's simply amazing that there are so many geniuses in the modding-community.

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yet it doesnt resolve the

yet it doesnt resolve the issue fully.

However gives the clue about where to look for the bug :)

Ice
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Yay! It's so cool to see a

Yay! It's so cool to see a corporate entity work with a community like this. I really hope Bethesda takes it and makes the fix. :D

Anruin
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Ormin, I've sent email to

Ormin, I've sent email to you. Waiting for your answer. :)

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van rafell
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Try to add in Skyrim

Try to add in Skyrim ini.:

 

[HAVOK]
bUseCharacterRB=0

I've found that in polish Skyrim forum :)

Maybe it works :)

ironman12345
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I know that I have mentioned

I know that I have mentioned this before,but I still think that getting skyrim into the oblivion engine to compliment morroblivion might be a easier route to take.

I know that the TES4 graphics are not as good skyrims in some peoples minds,but I still think it is worth considering.?

 

EnvyDeveloper
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It would be interesting to
It would be interesting to see the last two Tes games in the skyrim engine. And I would definitely love all the quests to appear again. :)
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Hmm Phitt says you're allowed

Hmm Phitt says you're allowed to convert his models from his Sheogorad mod to Skyrim. http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=37329 So that's pretty cool.

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@Sesmu
@Sesmu Nice! this mod contains many good models! ps mb he can allowed to use his models in original MorrOblivion? Cuz models are really pretty!

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