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alysander
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Magic and perks

Just want to illustrate ideas from chat about perk system and spells: maybe it's better to just make spell_trees (like in Diablo_2 or smth) where most of spells require perk equivalent to work (one perk can be used but many spells). Also it should illustrate possible spells, that we can take from Skyrim (including using spell_effects of shouts). Most of suggested spells sure can be made (they exists in mods or can be made obviously as combo of common spells).

I made structure of 3 skills for example.

Smitehammer propose to add some automatic progression perks in all skills that would give effectiveness cons (such as additional damage by archery or so).

Later i'll add more info on proposed spells.

Edited by: alysander on 08/10/2014 - 03:26
Cyde042
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 I have mixed feelings about

 I have mixed feelings about this. Imagine yourself using this system, it would require 1 level=1 spell and I would normally first spend my perk points on melee damage upgrades than magic (since magic in skyrim is so under-powered for the user).

I can propose making it skill level wise. Let's say for alteration we could have something like this:

  • With a starting skill level of 15, the player has access to not so game-changing spells like water breathing, fast swim, ward and oak flesh
  • At 25 - ward 2, stone flesh
  • 35 - water walking, feather
  • 50 - slowfall etc.

You get the idea, this would have to be tested of course for balance, if there won't be scaling in skywind (which I hope). And since there's been talk about spell-making mods that are working even now, it's possible to make it even better.

Also, custom spell-making means highly costing spells, means we'll still need perks that decrease their cost.
 By they way, were did you get those icons? And what do the acronyms mean (TK,MW,SW,DG,SK)?

alysander
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> 1 level=1 spell

> 1 level=1 spell
= i think even in complete magical world u need some advance/experience even for simple telekinesis of firebite
= each perk required not for 1 but for set of related spells (different creatures to summon, or different power of spell)

> perks that decrease their cost
= i want next perk making lower cost of previous perk-associated spells (so if you can fly u can walk on water for 66% cost)

> were did you get those icons
= just made some decoration

>TK,MW,SW,DG,SK
= telekinesis, morrowind, skywind, dawnguard, skyrim.

thegentlemancaller
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I liked how in Skyrim certain

I liked how in Skyrim certain spells were impossible to obtain until that school of magic reached 50. I also liked Morrowind's system, where any spell can be bought at any time (with the exception of certain faction-only vendors); as the skill in that school of magic progressed, the spell costed less magicka and had a higher success rate. Unlike Skyrim, spells in Morrowind could fail, making some spells difficult and risky to cast in battle (as it still used your magicka even if the spell failed).

I think it would be best if magic was a combination of the two games. Spell tomes can be bought anywhere, although many upper level spells are blocked by faction, faction rank, etc. So for example, a high-level restorative spell would only be available to a high level Temple rank, a high-ranking destruction spell would only be available to a high level Mage's Guild rank, etc. That way certain spells are simply impossible to obtain without putting in some faction muscle, akin to Morrowind's system.

Also, certain spells are more easily found as one advances the appropriate skills level. Perhaps a player would be more likely to find a Telekinesis spell tome if their appropriate level is, say, 50. A skill of under 50 means that it would never appear, a skill of 60 gives a 0.01% chance to appear in loot, a skill of 70 gives a 0.1% chance to appear in loot, so on and so forth.

The perks can then dictate how the spell works, much like Skyrim but more in-depth. The perks would allow for speedier casting times, less magicka consumption, a higher success rate, dual-casting supercharging, etc. I like the idea that certain spells may only be accessible to those with the appropriate perk - perhaps this could be the vanguard for the most powerful spells? Perhaps one would have to choose the appropriate mastery perk in that skill to actually use the top-tier spells in that school?

I'm not sure if "failing" spells are possible in Skyrim's engine, but I'd love for that to make a return. I was never much of a magic user in Morrowind or Skyrim, but the fact that a spell could fail definitely added a layer of strategy to spellcasting. It could be frustrating, sure, but it also made me think twice before I cast a spell with a low skill level.

TemporaryMan
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Please, no.  No spell failure

Please, no.  No spell failure.  Skyrim's magic already underperforms any other option except hand-to-hand.  If there's even a small chance of spell failure, the only tactical choice it "adds" is the use of enchanted swords and bows instead of magic, always.  As it is, the only uses I have for Destruction are runes to pop draugr out of their "pez dispensers" early to minimize ambushes, cloaks for chasing wild animals underwater, and lightning for shooting flying dragons.  It's essentially a utility, not a primary combat strategy.  It saps a limited resource needed for healing, does nothing at all without magicka (unlike weapons without fatigue), can't be sharpened, can't be enchanted, can't be poisoned, doesn't get critical hits, and is far less stealthy than arrows.  Also, spell damage doesn't increase with skill level (unlike weapons), perks only increase damage by 50% (unlike 100% for weapons), and fortify skill enchantments don't increase damage (unlike weapons).  If Skywind does anything to change how destruction magic works, it should try to make it more appealing, not less.  Good gameplay experience is much more important than fundamentalist adherence to Morrowind's mechanics.

thegentlemancaller
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True, but you're also talking

True, but you're also talking about Skyrim magic. Magic in Skyrim was weak and underwhelming, to say the least. Magic in Morrowind was much more powerful overall; for example, playing through Skyrim as a mage was near-impossible, while playing through as a mage in Morrowind was much easier. Heck, you play as an alchemist/mage in Morrowind you could easily be nigh-unstoppable.

And you're right, good gameplay mechanics is much more important than adherence to Morrowind. The idea here is to build on both Morrowind and Skyrim.

Anyway, yeah, the "spells can fail" aspect has always been controversial. People either love it or hate it, most probably hating it.

If nothings else changes as far as magic goes, (in Skywind) I'd just like to see magic beefed up. Magic in Skyrim was such a letdown; all dazzle and no punch.

Cyde042
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 Experience for spells? That

 Experience for spells? That's why there are skill levels, it would be easier for a mage class to train a certain skill level than level up, especially at higher levels and in the end, they'd have to train melee and armor skills to reach max level - 81.

If it were level-wise, wouldn't this ruin mage builds? It would mean that you could have access to very few spells at a certain point, possibly delaying progression in the main quest, albeit of course MW doesn't have scaling and the player has to be prepared for a harder fight, but he shouldn't grind levels since training magic skills in SK is already annoying enough. But then again, it has to be tested.

Also, has there been talk about implementing shouts in SW in any way? I would really like to see some (if they would actually be useful unlike SK). And those icons look really sweet, did you make them for all magic schools?

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Actually some creatures are

Actually some creatures are leveled in Morrowind.  So Morrowind isn't completely unleveled. 

alysander
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> Also, has there been talk

> Also, has there been talk about implementing shouts in SW in any way?
= Their effects can be used for creating spells: bend_will for example - as basis of command_humanoid spell.

Thermocrius
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I suppose I should drop by

I suppose I should drop by and say that I am working on the magic as of now. We(the game mechanics team) have been discussing how the shout button should be used and as of now, it seems it will be used for powers, activating enchantments and special abilities(Khajiit Night-Eye etc).