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ElderNick
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[WIP] Winged Twilight

Hi All,

Ive been putting together a rough model for the Winged Twilight.

Heres the original concept by Monopteryx:

Here's what Ive sculpted out so far:

The head has changed a bit from the concept art as Ive made it more bat-like, and am after feed back. Also I will add hair at a later stage.

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Looks great. Much scarier

Looks great. Much scarier than the original 

ElderNick
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Also need to find a Skeleton,

Also need to find a Skeleton, then I can morph onto that.

Suggestions please!

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looks really good, but theres

looks really good, but theres one thing. the bat ears sort of detract from the rest of the body, they look kinds silly.

regardless it still good :D thumbs up fo yo

ps. for the skeleton, maybe spriggan or a fire atronach 

ElderNick
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Yeah the ears were the bit Im

Yeah the ears were the bit Im east happy with, might make them more like the vamp lord ears.

 

ElderNick
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Here's a quick update:

Here's a quick update:

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looking great so far, but

looking great so far, but I think it is important to consider the background of the Winged Twilights as guardians of a plane of beauty, ruled by the Daedric prince of dawn and dusk. I feel that some degree of their appearance should reflect that, with the face especially, which I feel needs to look more "Azura-like", and the skin having the design and markings of the original and more recent depictions. Remember, though, that they are Daedra, and not natural creatures of Mundus, and as such are able to have a degree of consistency of other humanoid Daedra.

Here's an interesting example of a unique winged twilight that actually isn't actively trying to kill the player, but is not hostile and converses instead. It retains the skin features of the orignal, although it has its differences. Notice the "bumps" on the skin that were also present in Morrowind:

Although all the other ones take a more familiar flying stance:

Great job thus far, I think the body shape is perfect, although it may be difficult to match it to a skeleton, hopefully not though.

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Bat-woman with scorpio

Bat-woman with scorpio abdomen. So much beauty.
If it need to have some beauty - maybe that should be some illusion?
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Angel-like structure isnt nice, but can be used if team decide to use vampire_lord rig for it.
---
I think that it's possible to go further with echolocation.


 

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While that certainly is nice,

While that certainly is nice, I disagree, it isn't exactly very lore friendly of a depiction to transform them from Daedric guardians to a sentient bat race. Doing so also removes all consistency with the other Daedra, such as Golden Saints and Seducers, Dremora, and Xilvai. That is not to say the idea cannot be applied elsewhere, it is an interesting idea, but doesn't really work here, with what has been established. It makes them feel not like Daedra, but as something else entirely, which they aren't, and feels out of place among the humanoid Daedra and the original appearance which the newest official depiction was mostly faithful to. Daedra are the embodiments of change and the spheres of their princes, and so it seems odd for the embodiment of Azura's influence to have a false appearance of beauty, that sounds more like the Boethiah's sphere of betrayal.

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Actually i dont think that it

Actually i dont think that it should be even sentient. Daedras are like living-constructions to me mostly, maybe they was transformed from some life, maybe not. Would be nice to feel Daedras as smth completely not living as earth creatures.
---
I think only gold_saints and dremora should be true sentient.

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But Golden Saints and Dremora

But Golden Saints and Dremora are just as much Daedra as a flame atronarch, and Battlespire proves the not as commonly witnessed sentience of the others. Seekers of Apocrypha communicate amongst themselves and the concept organ-urns found in the realm. "I learned that each urn houses, in a broth of noisome fluid, a living concept-organ excised from its corpus. I do not like those urns." Lore-friendliness is and should be held highly. 

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Here's a test for a much more

Here's a test for a much more feminine face.

Still looks creepy, and not exaclty beautiful, but more true to the original.

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Not sure that we should be so

Not sure that we should be so stick to the lore, original and so on. I cannot stay from laughing if i imagine how kwama should look stick to the Kirk's early concepts or MW designs (where creatures of diff casts look like constructed from moveable bodyparts).

I think beautiful can be only illusion. Beauty is always illusion.
Daedra could only imitate humans, but not be very close to them in appearence. I think 'clannfear, seeker and ogrims' have more balanced humanoid appearence.

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alysander wrote:

alysander wrote:

Actually i dont think that it should be even sentient. Daedras are like living-constructions to me mostly, maybe they was transformed from some life, maybe not. Would be nice to feel Daedras as smth completely not living as earth creatures.
---
I think only gold_saints and dremora should be true sentient.

"Even though many lesser Daedra are associated with a Daedric Prince in particular, in reality, any individual Daedroth can serve any Daedric Prince by taking part in an "Oath Bond" while others stay unaligned, though the specifics are characteristically unknown" http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra

Molag Bal complains about one of his servants, a lazy Daedroth named Menta Na who has retreated into the caves of Kora-Dur instead of creating the usual havoc and terror. Molag Bal gives you a key and asks you to kill Menta Na to obtain his favor. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Molag_Bal's_Quest

Molag Grunda, a Winged Twilight, is involved in the Cure for Vampirism quest. She is apparently Molag Bal's daughter, who is in an affair with a Frost Atronach named Nomeg Gwaihttp://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Winged_Twilight_(Morrowind)

The Dissident Priests claim the story of Vivec having children with Molag Bal is impossible as Daedra "can't create life" (a claim also noted in Aedra and Daedra). Molag Grunda's existence contradicts this, and lends weight to the rumors mentioned in Notes on Racial Phylogeny that men and mer may breed with daedra. Alternatively, she may just be adopted as winged twilights are typically found in Azura's domain. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Molag_Grunda

Need I go on...

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Do you want to say that they

Do you want to say that they all are sentient?
Or about that they can revolt/desert?
Or do you want to point out that they can sexually reproduce?

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alysander wrote:

alysander wrote:

Do you want to say that they all are sentient?
Or about that they can revolt/desert?
Or do you want to point out that they can sexually reproduce?

Aly, the point is where not violating lore because you want to add weird crap on to the design.

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Actually i see weird_crap as

Actually i see weird_crap as the essence of daedra. Animals in MW designed in a power better.
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It will be just obvious harpy if we dont add smth original. Echolocation is just example.

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I much preferred the initial

I much preferred the initial model of the face that you showed in dev chat yesterday rather than the more bat-like Winged Twilight we're seeing here. The thin, elongated appearance of the Twilight already gives it a slenderman-esque sort of appearance, and giving them a more woman-like face makes them dangerously alluring as opposed to grotesque - a trait which befits them as the servants of Azura

 

They could preserve the elongated ears and 'blind' grey eyes to drive the bat-theme that much further. 

 

I don't think we need to add anything relating to echolocation onto the design, simply because there is no telling what are the rules of physics in Azura's realm. Daedra are not meant to be realistic beings, or even things that care for the rules of our dimension. Hermaeus Mora is content with being an amorphous blob of tentacles, for example. There is no telling how Winged Twilights navigate ;)

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I am content with form of

I am content with form of Hermaeus Mora  and i am content with this spider-like proportions on concept.
I just want more original in this. We already have talking humanoid lizards and birds.
I know that this is vain attempt to change something, that already had a roots in too many man's brains and became a tradition.
This is only a option you know.
---
Not sure how this possible to make tail and flying. Vampire_lorg have flying, Hag have relevant legs, no one have this tail.

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alysander wrote:

alysander wrote:

I am content with form of Hermaeus Mora  and i am content with this spider-like proportions on concept.
I just want more original in this. We already have talking humanoid lizards and birds.
I know that this is vain attempt to change something, that already had a roots in too many man's brains and became a tradition.
This is only a option you know.
---
Not sure how this possible to make tail and flying. Vampire_lorg have flying, Hag have relevant legs, no one have this tail.

Alysander, you dont need to worry about how to make it work in game, that is the responsibility of others such as myself, and I can tell you right now, that getting a working tail in game is something that is very achievable even using an existing skeleton such as the Vampire Lord. We can even create a highly customised skeleton if required.

Offtopic warning.

I would also like to say, I notice that you provide a lot of what you would call "options". But in a very demanding way. You tend to come across as negative to other peoples points of view and almost demand it be done your way. I find it distracts away from what the thread is about and ends in pointless arguments. This is just my opinion after reading a number of threads with responses from you, and does not necessarily represent the whole entire teams view.

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Dragons have both wings AND

Dragons have both wings AND tail. Animations would have to be redone, but the skeleton with the correct parts is there :)

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Despite Ehams new skeletons,

Despite Ehams new skeletons, until we have 100% ingame working stuff and a dependable team of animators whos animations get ingame without issue, I feel plan A should always be to conform to existing skeletons in skyrim wherever possible.

In the case of Twilight, its difficult. We have no skyrim creature  with 2 wing arms that both attacks with them and uses them to fly.
What we do have is a) Gargoyle, for a twilight with seperate wings but very rarely flies, and b) hagraven that has just 2 arms/wings that uses them for melee attacks and magic.

From this we can design 2 varients.

Elder you're on the right track, if you can create the bulk of the work at a high enough quality, I'm willing to give u this creature claim, but depending on how long it takes determines whether we use EHam's new skeleton/animation systems or I take your models, warp them to desired shapes using skyrim skeletons (warped) and send them back to u for finishing.
 

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Hi All,

Hi All,

Thnx for the feedback! Here's a lil progress, mainly to show the face and proportions. please ignore the crappy wings, just for blocking purposes.

As far as the basic design goes Im fairly set on this look. It works with Monopteryx's initial concept and more importantly works with Morrowind.

However, Ill begin detailing over the next few days, and will still want all the feedback I can get on that.

Id be more than happy to send thro the model to you Rav, as you've got all the skills that I want/need! even if Eham gets a new skeley working, that might still be the best course of action...

Anyways, stay posted over the next few days, and see what y'all think of the progress ;]

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So how it would sting you

So how it would sting you with such wings? I think it's possible now only from from below.
So sting of scorpion should be turned and possibly changed into some more original.
I would make more long and less massive sting.

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Well considering it's a

Well considering it's a scorpion tail, presumably it stings like a scorpion does. ie gets down on all 4 and stinger goes over the top...

But with a deadly smile like this, the string should be the least of our worries :o

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"Daedra cannot create, only

"Daedra cannot create, only imitate"

Daedra did not take part in the creation of Mundus, and while they retain their power, they cannot create out of nothing, much like how one's dreams are only of what we have seen and know, yet still can seem strange or twisted. Such is the case of the Daedra. Morrowind has quite unique flora and fauna, but Winged Twilights are not from Morrowind, and should reflect the sphere of Azura. Bats are a Nocturnal thing, And false appearances are a Boethiah thing. Let's stop trying to force lore-unfriendliness, please.

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I'm already calmed down.

I'm already calmed down.
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Any cannot create. This wasnt problem to have terrific biodiversity on our not ideal planet.
I get your idea, would be nice to have such supernatural evolution documented in game.

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The Daedra don't evolve, the

The Daedra don't evolve, the replication is of Mundus. In Nirn, Mundus was created by the Aedra, and so "Any cannot create" does not apply to TES. "supernatural evolution" is not what I'm referring to, rather the Daedric appearance that changes with the sphere, and can only replicate, as dreams do. Each of the lesser daedra should reference to some degree the sphere of their master, as their appearance changes depending on who they serve. Dremora serving Mehrunes Dagon, for example, have the familiar red glow and markings, while Dremora serving Molag Bal have an equivalent blue glow and distinct markings, as well as more varying levels of skin tone. Daedra do not evolve, and more powerful daedra, being the embodiment of change, can change their appearance at will.

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Oh, and that is written in

Oh, and that is written in some kind of book? :)
Everything was quite different actually :)
---
I am not in mood for theological debate, especially in format of forum.
Srry if i provoked you.

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lookin good. :D :D 

lookin good. :D :D 

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There was many words, most of

There was many words, most of them are not very useful.
I want to distinctly clarify some stuff about daedra (yes or no).

LORE:
Do daedra all are sentient? And what do of them are if not all?
Can they revolt/desert from one lord and stick to another?
Can they sexually reproduce? (>Molag Grunda is apparently Molag Bal's daughter)
Did daedra are some transformed life of Mundus (maybe ascender mer or human)? (or other "natural" source)

TECH:
If model will be stick with girl face, does it will be possible to use NPC-customizable faces?
May be this can be tricked as attractive NPC, transforming into this type of daedra when player comes to help.

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alysander wrote:

alysander wrote:



TECH:
If model will be stick with girl face, does it will be possible to use NPC-customizable faces?
May be this can be tricked as attractive NPC, transforming into this type of daedra when player comes to help.

I can only provide an answer to this, I could see this being possible using face morphs, using something like the combat anger face morph to do it, but it would be a lot of work for such a small effect. If we too many people and not enough work, it would be fine, but when we have a lot to do, and not that many people, we have more important things to focus on. I hope Im not coming across as negative, constantly shooting down ideas, but we need to keep things realistic, time frame wise.

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Alright, Alysander got it a

Alright, Alysander got it a bit wrong. He wants to put biology into creatures that should escape any rules, biology as well. Their appearance should be nightmare'ish, like a fever dream, totally surreal. Look up art by Zdzisław Beksiński to get a grasp of it people.

As for the model itself, I'm perfectly happy with how the whole creature turned out in the end. Azura is a motherly Goddess, that means she also has a dark, punishing side. She's a rose, and Winged Twilights are her thorns. She loves to curse and bless at the same time, like she did with Dunmer (hellish appearance, but it helps them withstand the hardships of Vvardenfell). Her servants need to reflect that nature too, and be the dawn and the dusk at the same time. I think the model captures it very well. Later perhaps we can think of some cool light effects to make them a bit more mystical, but that might not be necessary anyway.

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Hey all,

Hey all,

Ive been thinking about how I want to go about detailing this model. I did a quick test of one idea:

Note: this is just a test! dont get angry at me because it looks like crap...

I was also thinking about tactically placing bits of scorpion-esque carapace as well, tho I havent tested that yet.

Opinions please :]

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Reverse it - put the scorpion

Reverse it - put the scorpion scales on the extremities and limbs; hands and arms, feet and legs, tail. Those are typically the most armored parts of the Winged Twilights. The scaling breaks up and become more sparse and detailed on the body/face. 

 

Reference; http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/Wesadam/Creatures/WAR...

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Scorpions hasnt scales.

Scorpions hasnt scales. Reverse it - make tail more like tail of vertebrata. You can change it to some more vertebrata stuff - fingers, claws or even additional limb.
 

 

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I'd avoid the obvious scale

I'd avoid the obvious scale bra though, it looks a bit silly, having a Daedra parade around in a swimsuit. Perhaps there's a way to conceal the nipples in a less obvious way if we really don't want to have them (personally I wouldn't mind), or maybe have the breasts just empty like in Monopteryx's concept? Either way, I'd still avoid the "bra" look.

 

With the original textures it wasn't so prominent as in Westly's retexture Tajnarasha linked anyway.

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Haha, good point Drago.

Haha, good point Drago.

Im all for nipples as well! that would also add to their seductive appeal, because who notices a scorpion tail and bat wings when titties are around...

I that case I might reserve the scales for the limbs, back and tail.

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Oh, and about the scales - I

Oh, and about the scales - I know bird is not really a part of Winged Twilights, but the shape of their legs would really fit a pattern similar to bird legs.





Just keep the shape as weird as it is, so that we don't end up with simple harpies with eagle legs ;)

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Drago is right in this

Drago is right in this aspects I can not disagree
1) or maybe have the breasts just empty like in Monopteryx's concept?
2) Just keep the shape as weird as it is, so that we don't end up with simple harpies with eagle legs

Small leather-like scales from last foto can be ideal.
Ideal for tail maybe reference to bird's leg from 2nd foto. (limb on the end of tail, much more weirder that scorpion and more consistent)

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Drago stop putting tits on

Drago stop putting tits on everything you bloody nudist. :P

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But they are so nice!

But they are so nice!

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> Drago stop putting tits on

> Drago stop putting tits on everything you bloody nudist
> im all for nipples as well!
> I that case I might reserve the scales for the limbs, back and tail.

Hm... maybe you might to put it all with nipples instead? :>

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Alrighty,

Alrighty,

So quickly testing better locations for the scales, already think Its looking a lot better. Note: still not final scale style, just easy to mock up...

I terms of feet, are you refering to the feet Im currently using? (as they are base of the concept, and somewhat birdy looking) or the og feet look?

 

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When I said keep the weird

When I said keep the weird feet I meant the ones from Monopteryx's concept, and I see you've modelled them as well ;) Really like them. As for scales - I'd still change up the location a bit, if you give me a few minutes I'll come back with a quick Photoshop mockup.

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Please do!

Please do!

I do plan making the locations somewhat more random, just quickly masked out large areas for this. But Ill have a looksie at what you've got in mind :]

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Right, it's a quick mockup,



Right, it's a quick mockup, so the texture isn't too defined. I'd like the scales to be spread across a large area, but get smaller and fade in in some (while be big and pronounced in other places, lower legs especially). The belly and loin scales I drawn up to look like they're a continuation of the tail, and I think it's a reasonable way to go about it. I put strong scales on the lower legs and winghs for more birdy outlook, and on the abdom and neck for protection. However, the whole rest is covered with scales, just more or less sparse and smaller, instead of arranged in patterns like in the more busy areas. The patterns in bigger scale areas to me are very important - in nature scales are also arranged in patterns and it automatically makes it look much more natural, and less blocky.

Hope it helps ;) If you need I can make a more detailed repaint with more of a texture to it. There's not been any designs made for Winged Twilights as we thought Monopteryx's will be enough, so I guess we gotta design it as we go :P

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Thnx man, that looks sweet!

Thnx man, that looks sweet!

That should give me a good start for now. Ill keep on posting progress. As you say, monopteryx's design was an awesome guide for the basic shape and style, but the details will have to be worked out as I go.

Luckily for me, we have an awesome community here. Many good ideas for me to steal :]

Ps. grats on the 1000 karma, youve earned it!

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Didn't read all the posts,

Didn't read all the posts, but did you guys think about rigging it to Hagravens body? Though only issue with hagraven is that tail wouldn't be animated. 

Even if it's rigged to hagraven, it probably needs to be altered a bit to fit the skeleton and animations? 

Anyhow, lovely design! 

Acheryus
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Dragomir wrote:

Dragomir wrote:

I'd avoid the obvious scale bra though, it looks a bit silly, having a Daedra parade around in a swimsuit. Perhaps there's a way to conceal the nipples in a less obvious way if we really don't want to have them (personally I wouldn't mind), or maybe have the breasts just empty like in Monopteryx's concept? Either way, I'd still avoid the "bra" look.

With the original textures it wasn't so prominent as in Westly's retexture Tajnarasha linked anyway.

Why would an immortal being have nipples? they don't reproduce and if scales are being added they are not mammals so why are nipples even being thought of? this idea just doesn't seem lore friendly to me, i have no problem with nudity in a game but it should be done in places where it is appropriate, else it just cheapens the experience to just being about sex appeal.  

Tajnarasha
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Acheryus wrote:

Acheryus wrote:

Dragomir wrote:

I'd avoid the obvious scale bra though, it looks a bit silly, having a Daedra parade around in a swimsuit. Perhaps there's a way to conceal the nipples in a less obvious way if we really don't want to have them (personally I wouldn't mind), or maybe have the breasts just empty like in Monopteryx's concept? Either way, I'd still avoid the "bra" look.

With the original textures it wasn't so prominent as in Westly's retexture Tajnarasha linked anyway.

Why would an immortal being have nipples? they don't reproduce and if scales are being added they are not mammals so why are nipples even being thought of? this idea just doesn't seem lore friendly to me, i have no problem with nudity in a game but it should be done in places where it is appropriate, else it just cheapens the experience to just being about sex appeal.  

 

TIL; tits, regardless of the being they are on will inevitably result in sex appeal. Watch out, we might stir someone because the scaly bat-harpy ladies have nipples. 

 

I understand your point, but where Daedra are concerned you have to remember they do not care for rules of biology or even physics of our realm. This is why Hermaeus Mora is content with being an amorphous blob of tentacles, and why any and all Daedra could have reproductive organs even if they served no purpose. I'd rather criticize the artistic merit of a design rather than go 'omg sex' because you see a nipple. 

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