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alysander
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[WIP] Kagouti Hybrid

Hello. I want to present first try in modeling Kagouti male specimen. Now it's on polypainting stage.
I am trying to make it more biologically plausible and less predatory, but dangerous as enraged elephant.

previous version stage, anatomy map and female version:

Edited by: grumpycat on 03/15/2014 - 01:34
Tajnarasha
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This looks terrifying. I

This looks terrifying. I would have to reconsider my Cliff Racer phobia if I encountered that in a dark alley. 

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My only concerns would be

My concern would be that the knee is a little high, it looks like it would clip the tusks as it walks. Maybe change the size of the upper legs in relation to the lower legs a little? That and the leg and the bottom tusk are clashing a little in terms of positioning, the torso looks a little cramped. Here, I did a really quick sketch to show you:

Other than that, looks okay

alysander
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Only 3 points will be really

(deleted)

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Dude, idk maybe you should've

Dude, idk maybe you should've discussed this with us before. 

alysander
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I am trying to discuss now.

I am trying to discuss now.

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Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of it

Hmm, I'm not a huge fan of it. I just feel that it looks far too different from Morrowind's original Kagouti, especially the legs.

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It could use a little more

It could use a little more modesty, meaning I think its a little hard to look at. There is too much going on. 

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(No subject)

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Ribtibs, I think you nailed

Ribtibs, I think you nailed the most of the issues actually. I was a little worried about being too rude.

alysander
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legs will be changed, but it

legs will be changed, but it's anyway strange and unbalanced without tail (or hands or long neck).

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The kagouti reminds me of a

The kagouti reminds me of a bipedal rhinoceratops.  It seems to be very territorial, but herbivorous.  Like a bull.  Or you know... a rhinoceratops.

Actually, I'm fine with the teeth you've got going on.  That's about all I'm fine with on this model, currently.  Ribtibs, these are the teeth of an elephant, or mastodon, and would fit in perfectly with the rest of the motiff (the tongue should be a tongue, though).

I do like that you made the two long protruding tusks as tusks (and not gazelle horns like the old model), but have them angle out and upward, play with elegant curvature - like short mammoth tusks.  As for the front of the mouth, look to the hippo for inspiration.  Those bottom teeth that jut out in the front?  Just like a hippo.

The eyes of a kagouti are the eyes of an elephant set low and far back in the head, like a whale.

The horn on the nose should be shallow, like a triceratops, but placed closer to the tip of the nose, like a rhinoceros.  And of course, the crest should be like a low triceratops crest (or actually, looking at how rounded and low the original was, even more like a Brachyceratops).

The feet are too elongated even on the original model.  But you should be going for quadrupedal dinosaur, not a bird.  Triceratops is again your best reference for the feet.

The only real bird influence for the design is the 'tail', which should look a bit like a plucked ostrich (with a bit more of a point to it)

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The overall proportion is

The overall proportion is just really warped, also from biological point of view. With a head that big the body has to be something more than just a straight forward french- fry. Granted, some animals have most of their organs right behind the head, but that's usually fish that have a tail which is the majority of their bodies and is mostly muscles.

The body really needs to be made bigger, for both artistic, and anatomical proportion to be right. Because of the small body, the really long legs look weird.  This creature would be extremely unstable, mostly because how close the legs are to each other. And if I imagine it trying to eat something from the ground...

But, to back up my statement i did a quick repaint of your model to the proportions it would look much better with, and that are also closer to the original Morrowind's Kagouti.

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Making kagouti a herbivore

Making kagouti a herbivore was in my mind a brilliant decision. I always imagined them as some sort of bipedal boars digging up the ground with these tusks, looking for bulbs and roots in the ground. My remarks concerning overall look of the beast were summarised in Drago's post- shorter legs, bigger body. Other things I would like to comment on include decreasing the number of tusks and horns- they are everywhere, and especially the upper-side ones could be reduced to simply a small horn or even a skull reinforcement.

Also, I think that if not by the legs, this animal could use its tongue for manipulation- a bit like giraffes do. Mostly,  because there is nothing left to think of.

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Oh yeah, I can surely see

Oh yeah, I can surely see that widacreator, them stirring up the ground with their lower jaw teeth, digging up ash yams and perhaps some big worms from time to time, putting it in their mouth with long, agile tongues, and chewing up with those big teeth.

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I'm with Ribtibs! the model

I'm with Ribtibs! the model isn't cool at all...is simply ugly and badly developed.  

The question isn't be rude or not, but simple be honest for the good of the project. The sculpting process is very superficial and accentuates a lack of knowledge and technique.  

The anatomy is completly wrong and not plausible. When we model a creature we have to focus on the anatomy to make it believable.  

The Dragomir repaint is perfect to explain what i have in my mind XD

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That is the spirit. Some

That is the spirit. Some ideas/critique is good, some i just don't see as plausible, honestly.

http://imageshack.com/a/img545/9616/gfzr.jpg
Generally legs was peeked from Nandi's model of Alit. But IMHO i don't like overgrown muscles and non-manipulator claws.

@dragomir
> The body really needs to be made bigger
+ may be some fat not be excess.
> This creature would be extremely unstable, mostly because how close the legs are to each other.
– really don't understand it. Bipedal creature just need tail/long neck/hands to be stable, it's more crucial then legs' distance. I am not can imagine it even raising one leg.

@widacreator
> use its tongue for manipulation
= actually more agile form can use one leg (if have tail to balance). But i will add tongue.

> cool  = that is VERY subjectively and often related to simple conservatism

okay, i need some reaction from Ribtips and then rebalance model.

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I'm personally for making the

I'm personally for making the Kagouti a little different than the Alit, for the sake of species variation and also for in-game readability. We don't want the Kagouti to simply be a version of the Alit with horns, we want it to be another creature entirely. Giving it some counterbalance (as opposed to the Alit) does make sense from a biological and artistic point of view. I don't disagree that the anatomy of the legs and body should be improved to make the Kagouti a more believable predator, but I certainly enjoy the idea of it being a velociraptor/triceratops mix. 

 

You're doing a great job, Alysander - I can't wait to see how this one develops! 

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I found one AMAZING concept

I found one AMAZING concept art of Kaugoti, which seems to be what we really need now. It's made by Monopteryx, Ravanna already based his Nix Hound on his work.



I love the way it looks, it's different from Alit, has rather long legs and a tail, while also not being so horribly disproportioned.

alysander
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Yeah i like monopteryx's Nix

Yeah i like monopteryx's Nix Hound. Really want Kwama to became more like it.
What about Kagouti - it have more adequate neck and corrigible jaws.
Do you like his conception of frill?
Legs can be averaged.

 

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Dragomir wrote:

Dragomir wrote:

I think that if you could get it to look something like this, maybe a little less fat and the tail from your current model, it would be perfect!

Ribtibs
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First and foremost, you need

First and foremost, you need to understand that final approval goes through our concept and art leads, of which Dragomir is one of them, so I would listen to what he says more than myself. I agree with the overall adjustments Drago has suggested, but I would still change even more. Additionally, check with our art leads if you should even continue with this or pass it to someone else, as the general sculptural quality is lacking. 

That said, if you are given approval to continue, I woud still change a lot of this, even more than just Drago's suggestions. To answer your blue comments:

Change to a tongue.

A horn in his mouth makes no real funtional or design sense.

If the texture is supposed to be skin then it needs to be rendered as either leathery or smooth skin. There is currently no surface texture to indicate the skin type.

To toe's need redone in a way that CLEARLY shows bone vs. tendon vs. loose skin.

Even if there are no eyelids, there needs to be a proper cavity that the eye sits in: an eye rarely sticks out further than the ocular cavity or at LEAST the brow. This protects the eye from dust and other things (also if this thing duels with tusks, an eye that is not protected by bone is a hazard).

The point of the "wear does the horn start" question wasn't for me to have you point it out on the model, it was to have you realize that right now I simple can not tell from looking at it, which is bad. There needs to be a clear distinction between what is bone/tusk and what is skin.

Concaves are bad form from a sculptural perspective. A concave is a weak shape that gives a sculpture a flat and undeveloped feeling. All concaves are really convex shapes joining together, as demonstrated in detail by leonardo da vinci. Example: look at your forearm muscles. Though there is a distinct line indicating a "concave" running from your elbow to wrist, that is really your Extensor Carpi Radialis and Extensor Longus muscles joining together. Two mountains to make a valley. By thinking this way you can give your sculptures more life and vitality. Volume is incredibly important for clarity.

Your teeth/tusks simply don't read as either, right now its just a mess of noise. Needs clarity of form.

That small claw just doesn't make sense to me, seems pointless and doesn't add to the design.

Whether you use wrinkles or scales on the ankles/legs, just be CLEAR and CONSISTENT

No the picture of the Kagouti and the word cool are not related, I am simply stating that your current model does not look cool due to the weak design and execution. The image was just a reference for the silhouette and style you need to shoot for. We are remaking morrowind, updating the look and feel of things to match the original desired designs. Though bethesda has changed things since then, we are not making skyrim or ESO, we are making Skywind, a morrowing mod. 

To add to Drago's image he gave you: my only issue with the drawn Kagouti is that it currently has too much neck  in my opinion. I feel it would not stand well. I would condense the neck a bit to balance him out. 

Also notice how the structure of the cranium is smooth and hard, not lumpy. I would maintain that rounded smooth look.

I would change the downturned canines to be upturned like in the drawing and the original morrowind design. 

I would remove one set of tusks, as it is not helping the design. 

Another important thing you need to remember: We are making GAME creatures. Not real creatures. The creature needs to feel balanced, but you have some wiggle room when it comes to real functionality. Design and execution are more important than biology.

That's really just the start of things I would modify. As said, talk to someone in charge and who is organizing and structuring our schedules and assignments to see if you should even bother with any of this. We have a structure for how assignments get distributed and we need to stick to our structure. Just because you make something doesn't mean it will get used, as it needs to match our standards of quality and we can't accept just any work.

alysander
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Yet, it's model for learning

Yet, it's model for learning/concept. If it will be more interesting/believable/acceptable after week - well, will be great. If it will not be accepted as basic, i think it can be mod/additional species.

> Additionally, check with our art leads if you should even continue with this or pass it to someone else, as the general sculptural quality is lacking. 
> Just because you make something doesn't mean it will get used, as it needs to match our standards of quality and we can't accept just any work.
= I think it need some work before have chances to be accepted. It's raw.

> Change to a tongue. A horn in his mouth makes no real (functional) or design sense.
= Already changed. Now it's a big, fleshy tongue.

> If the texture is supposed to be skin then it needs to be rendered as either leathery or smooth skin. There is currently no surface texture to indicate the skin type.
= Because that's raw concept. UV and Texturizing later.

> Even if there are no eyelids, there needs to be a proper cavity that the eye sits in: an eye rarely sticks out further than the ocular cavity or at LEAST the brow. This protects the eye from dust and other things (also if this thing duels with tusks, an eye that is not protected by bone is a hazard).
= Now they are in cavity and as separate object. Eyelids optional. Coloration changed to hide eyes in black line.

> The point of the "wear does the horn start" question wasn't for me to have you point it out on the model, it was to have you realize that right now I simple can not tell from looking at it, which is bad. There needs to be a clear distinction between what is bone/tusk and what is skin.
> I would remove one set of tusks, as it is not helping the design.
= "Horns" (paired maxillar tusks) now transformed into stiffening plate.

> Concaves are bad form from a sculptural perspective. A concave is a weak shape that gives a sculpture a flat and undeveloped feeling. All concaves are really convex shapes joining together, as demonstrated in detail by leonardo da vinci. Example: look at your forearm muscles. Though there is a distinct line indicating a "concave" running from your elbow to wrist, that is really your Extensor Carpi Radialis and Extensor Longus muscles joining together. Two mountains to make a valley. By thinking this way you can give your sculptures more life and vitality. Volume is incredibly important for clarity.
+ Now i see basis of your reaction. Will be changed - it's not have functionality.


> Your teeth/tusks simply don't read as either, right now its just a mess of noise. Needs clarity of form.
= Low resolution i think. They will be just like mammoth's tusks and molars two-in-one (but more concave). Monopteryx said that it's good.

> That small claw just doesn't make sense to me, seems pointless and doesn't add to the design.
= Maybe standard bird/dino leg 3+1 is better. Claws will be more burrowing than biting.

> Whether you use wrinkles or scales on the ankles/legs, just be CLEAR and CONSISTENT
= Wrinkles. May be with some CONSISTENT elements like alligator osteoderms.

> We are remaking morrowind, updating the look and feel of things to match the original desired designs.
= Ok. However, work with general ideas better than just conservatism.

> it currently has too much neck  in my opinion.  I would condense the neck a bit to balance him out. 
= Otherwise, Monopteryx's creature is more stable than Dragomir's. Long neck (and long tail) always was combined with bipedality (dinosaurs, kangaroo, some other creatures), only birds violated this rule - but they have free limbs and neck, and pneumatised bones.

> Also notice how the structure of the cranium is smooth and hard, not lumpy.
+ Ok.

> I would change the downturned canines to be upturned like in the drawing and the original morrowind design. 
= It's more like tusks of walrus - it's function is soil digging for roots. IMHO MW really need one more herbivore.

> Another important thing you need to remember: We are making GAME creatures. Not real creatures. The creature needs to feel balanced, but you have some wiggle room when it comes to real functionality. Design and execution are more important than biology.
= I see your idea, but i think it's correlate - good design and biological plausibility. I'd never played in games like Dwarf Fortress, if they did not have the pieces of ecology and geology.
 

 

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I understand it's a raw model

I understand it's a raw model, but even in a sketch stage it needs to be more proportionate. You focus on unnecessary details before even getting the silhouette right. You spent probably a long time on legs and head, and yet for the body you just drawn out a lump that looks really weird. You should start off with a sketch that has the shape right but is all plain, and then add more and more fine detail.


Having said that, show us what you did with it now and we'll decide whether it's worth continuing.

alysander
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I'll make new concept in

Modification to looks more like monopteryx's drawings. I didn't invent now more suitable claws (digging, not biting), and may be it need more of leg's biceps.



I am thinking about texture like skin of Galapagos tortoise, but without scales.

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yeah now thats looks much

yeah now thats looks much better for me

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That's definitely an

That's definitely an improvement.  I assume this is ZBrush, right?  What material are you using?  It looks you're using a sketch or cavity material.  Those are good when you're showing off a sculpt in flat white, but for something with color you should use the basic material.  In areas like the teeth especially it's unclear what detail is coming from where. 

alysander
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What material i should use?

[deleted post]

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Looks very great, cant wait

Coming along amazingly! The head is near perfect, I would only change minor details from this point on.

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I had some free time between

I had some free time between my activity and i made some changes to model : changed it's claws and horn to more consistency with bull-like ecological niche. I think on next week I'll make low-poly, make UVs and transfer texture/normals. Please write in commentaries if you notice some inaccuracy/inconsistency.


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thats looking pretty good

thats looking pretty good  good work only thing i see that needs some love is the tail it looks a bit wierd and got a dent in it  and its tongue is a bit on the smal side  

also posting the picture of the alit because i like howe te look a like event tru different persoons are making them 

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> tongue

> tongue
> tail
Ribtips has applausible
argument about concaves. I will edit tail.

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I think the Alit example

I think the Alit example covers the issue regarding leg musculature pretty well. Currently the Kagouti has pretty thin leg muscles, especially around the ankles. Considering how little counterbalance the creature actually has it would make sense for it to have thicker, more powerful feet and muscles to properly chase its preys. 

 

Also just wondering, why is the frontal horn made of a different material than the ones around the mouth and face? It seems a little strange. 

 

Don't know if these could be helpful for anatomical references;

http://opinionatedalex.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/velociraptor.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Triceratops_BW.jpg

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Tajnarasha wrote:

Tajnarasha wrote:

Considering how little counterbalance the creature actually has it would make sense for it to have thicker, more powerful feet and muscles to properly chase its preys. 

I'm pretty sure he's going for large herbivore, not carnivore (which is a great direction, imho). That said I agree about the legs and horn. All in all, it's coming along very nicely.

alysander
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> leg musculature

> leg musculature
= now i see that i need more quadriceps on inner side of femur, but in general i don't want this creature to be so overbursting with muscles as Alit.

> why is the frontal horn made of a different material
= one material was consistent when horn was made as another tusk (transformed teeth), now it's more like horn of goat or another ruminants. Now i think it look less visually overweighed with protuberances.


 

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Coming along amazingly! It

Coming along amazingly! It definitely needs the tusks and horns to match in texture though.

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perhaps more of a bull horn

perhaps more of a bull horn material for the tusks an (nose horn), usually a darker color like the attached picture

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Image icon cow-horn.jpg159.27 KB